Two Thumbs Up: How Siskel & Ebert Shaped Film Critiquing

In this episode, host Sandra Abrams has a conversation with Matt Singer - film critic, editor, podcaster, and author- about his new book, “Opposable Thumbs: How Siskel & Ebert Changed Movies Forever.” The book offers an insightful and funny look into the iconic pair of film reviewers and their combative style, and shares details about how their THUMBS UP or THUMBS DOWN trademark began. Plus, given Matt’s day job as film critic and editor of ScreenCrush.com, he talks about the role of film criticism for audiences in today’s entertainment and media world.

Learn more about Matt Singer here: https://www.matt-singer.net/
and here: https://screencrush.com/author/mattsinger/

Buy “Opposable Thumbs: How Siskel & Ebert Changed Movies Forever” wherever books are sold as well as through:

Penguin Random House
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/710246/opposable-thumbs-by-matt-singer/

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Transcript

00:10 - VO (Host)
Welcome to Media and Monuments presented by Women in Film and Video in Washington DC. Media and Monuments features conversations with industry professionals speaking on a range of topics of interest to screen-based media makers. 

00:36 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Reading a movie thumbs up or thumbs down is synonymous with Siskel and Ebert. Now a new book explains how it all started, their relationship on and off the balcony and the cultural impact they had on all of us. I'm your host, sandra Abrams, and in this episode I have a conversation with Matt Singer about his book Opposable Thumbs how Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever. But first a little bit about Matt Singer. He is the editor and film critic of ScreenCrushcom and a member of the New York Film Critics Circle. He won a Webby Award for his work on the Independent Film Channel's website, ifccom, and is the author of another book Marvel's Spider-Man, from Amazing to Spectacular. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two daughters, and he likes to bake, so we'll ask him about that as well. 

01:28
Congratulations on the book and welcome to Women in Film and Videos podcast. Thank you, Matt Singer, for being here. 

01:36 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
My pleasure. My pleasure, happy to be here, happy to talk about books or baking, whatever suits your mood. 

01:43 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, I read in the acknowledgments. Your wife was the one that said you have to write about Cisco and Ebert, so why was it so important to tell their story? 

01:56 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Well, according to her, it was important to tell the story because she knows me so well and knows that if I hadn't written it, that someday, if someone else wrote the book instead of me and I had passed on the opportunity, that I would have been miserable and spiteful about it for the rest of my life. And she was probably right about that. I fully give her credit for basically talking me into it when I was feeling a little self-conscious or nervous, basically just because I grew up a huge Siskel and Ebert fan. It is the reason that I became interested in movies and movie criticism and wanted to be a film critic and all those sorts of things. And so when I was talking to my literary agent about doing a book and kind of pitching ideas and I was, you know, I had sort of like a list of all these potential topics that I would maybe want to do a book about. And when I showed it to my wife before sending it to the agent, she was the one who was like how come Siskel Ebert isn't on here? Like because she knows me and knows that I was a huge fan of the show and and that would be a good topic. 

03:07
And you know I was like, you know, I was like I would want to do it, but I was also, you know, like what if I screw it up? Because to me it is such a big deal and, uh, it's a big responsibility, at least in my mind, to do, you know, hopefully, the book about these guys. And so I you know that's what I said I was like I don't know what if I, what if I can't do it, what if I'm not up to the task, you know. And she's like, first of all, you know, like, get over yourself. You know you can do it. 

03:36
You're fishing for compliments, you can, you know, I know you can do it. And then she and but she also said, like if you don't do it and someone else does, you are going to be pissed off about it forever. And I recognized immediately that, yes, she is right. So that was it, that was how that was, that was how the spite inspired this book. Love and spite, I sometimes say, were the two central inspirations for here it is, there it is, as you know. 

04:03 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Yes, you went through it and you uh came through on the other side and this is the end result right here. So, um, so, they had a huge influence on, on your life. But if you were to, uh, you know, say which one of these two, these, uh, chicago critics would you say are you most identify with? And you know whether it's personality or it's movie taste? You know, is it? Is it Siskel or is it Ebert? 

04:39 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
You know, I don't know, I'm not sure if I identify with one or the other in terms of taste. That's sort of an interesting question that I don't know that anyone's ever asked me. I'm not sure if I identify with one or the other in terms of taste. That's sort of an interesting question that I don't know that anyone's ever asked me. I mean, in terms of personal influence, for sure Roger Ebert was the bigger influence, just because, you know, gene Siskel passed away so young, when I was, you know, 1999. I was still in college, you know, studying film at that point, a little bit at that point already. And so you know, roger had this amazing sort of I don't know if you would call it a second act. A third act. That was sort of the later years when he was hosting the show with Richard Roper and then, even after he had health problems, he had this whole additional life as as a as a blogger and a writer and a thinker, not just about movies, but he was writing so beautifully about all these different topics, his own life and spirituality and politics and all kinds of random things, and he just sort of he was, he was much more present for so much more of my life. He was much more present for so much more of my life. 

05:46
But I will say, having said that, that you know, doing the research for the book and rewatching and watching so many episodes of the old show, it really made me sort of re-appreciate Gene Siskel who, again, like I, watched the show obsessively as a kid. But you know, unfortunately there aren't. I wish there were but there aren't. Like books of Gene's writing, unless you really go digging into the archives of the Chicago Tribune, it's not easy to find his written criticism. So you know, like he's not someone that I really studied per se, the way I had studied Roger Ebert, and like I have a whole shelf of Roger Ebert books in my house. 

06:28
But again, watching the show for the book, like I was, I I guess you could say I fell in love with Gene Siskel in a really intense way. I really enjoyed watching the show in general. But you know, like I said, I already really revered Roger a lot and so doing the research for the book was a great way to sort of like I really like fall back in love with with Gene. I really love what he brought to the show. The show would not have worked with just one, without the other, the mix of ingredients that they brought together was what really made it special. 

07:07 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Speaking of mix of ingredients and the stories that you got, I wanted to ask you about how you got people to share some of these stories and there's a treasure trove of them in the book, but I just wanted to highlight a few that I just love. There was one, so Gene Siskel. Highlight a few that I just love. There was one so, Gene Siskel. He had his pet pee. He didn't like people talking during the movie, so apparently he became a movie usher and he had the flashlight and then apparently he wanted to kick someone out, but instead they kicked out Siskel. So that was. That was great. 

07:41
And then the other one was Roger Ebert. He didn't study to be a film person. You know. He just by happenstance and serendipity got this job over at the Sun-Times and I read there was two ninety. He went to go see to learn about movies. So he went to the movies and the movie ticket was two dollars and ninety five cents. But then he also got a three course meal at the Chinese restaurant next door and then you had stories from Siskel's assistant and she talked about what a great procrastinator he was. So how did you get people to open up and share these stories with you share these stories with you. 

08:33 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Well, to some extent the people really really love telling these stories. Like it's not too hard if you can get in touch with these people. At least it wasn't for me, because the people who worked on this show really they all seem to kind of share this sort of love of that time and love of working on the show and love of Gene and Roger. And yes, these guys could be kind of cantankerous and you know they definitely gave each other a lot of grief and they were hard on each other and that was part of their sort of magic, of their appeal or their their rapport, I guess you could say. But they don't seem like they were, they were bad bosses. It seems like the people who work for them really seem to like love working for them and loved working with them. And so, yeah, they were. You know the hard part was sometimes finding them, but generally people who I found were very receptive to talking to me. I guess the other thing that did help is years ago, after you know Gene had passed away and Roger had lost the ability to speak, I had auditioned for one version of the show that was sort of the later years of the show that was called At the Movies. That, if you remember, was hosted eventually. It was hosted by Ben Lyons and Ben Mankiewicz was the first iteration like this and I had auditioned for a role on the show and doing that, I had met a bunch of the people who had worked on the show for a long time, including people like Don Dupree, who was the director of the show for a long time, and David Plummer, who was a producer of the show for a long time. And David Plummer, who was a producer of the show for a long time, and you know, just getting to go and go to the balcony set and meet these guys was a thrill of a lifetime Because, again, I was a huge fan as a kid of the show and so, like you know, when I'm showing up for these auditions, I guess you know I'm obviously I want to do well, but I'm, like, most excited about just talking to these people. I'll be like you. You're Don Dupree, I know your name from the credit. You were the director of Siskel and Ebert and um, and, and so any chance I got, uh, I would ask you know what was it like working with them? And I would tell, and so I think essentially that, um, you know, these guys knew me and I didn't. Obviously I wasn't the host of that show, but I had sort of a I guess you could say like a recurring role or a contributing critic role, where I was part of this one segment where they would have critics from around the country kind of now to basically do what we're doing now. What we're doing now. 

11:06
You know, I had to go to a television studio to do this back in the day because Zoom or Riverside or whatever didn't exist, but it was the same idea and it was basically like a roundtable discussion remotely about movies. And so I kept in touch with those guys and I think they understood that if I said I'm doing a book about Siskel and Ebert, they knew, ok, well, this guy is a true fan, he's really doing it because he loves this show and he loves Ebert and Siskel and he really wants to. You know, he's coming at it from a, from a sincere place of love, and so I think that probably helped as well, sort of, with those first couple of interviews. And then I would ask people I spoke to who else should I talk to, and so I was able to kind of connect to people that way as well, and so, yeah, that was sort of how I was able to track down the first people, and then that kind of got the snowball rolling down the hill, as it were. 

11:55 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, speaking of the show Ebert Presents at the movies, do you think if there was a future version that could be successful? 

12:20 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Do you think if there was a future version that could be successful? What involvement show. Siskel and Ebert, you know, had different names, it had different homes for basically a quarter of a century. It was this huge kind of presence in the world of film and film criticism and then, yeah, it had sort of these sort of alternate iterations after Gene dies, after Roger gets ill and it survives, basically until that last version, which was Ebert Presents at the Movies, which was on PBS. 

12:50 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
You were a segment contributor to that one. To that final version right. 

12:55 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
I was also. Yes, I was also. Yeah, I also did a few segments for that show as well and was able to meet Chaz, ebert and Roger as well doing that, which was a real thrill. And I guess that went off the air about 15 years ago now 14, 15 years ago and since then there hasn't really been anything. That's fully filled the void and it's like, well, why isn't that there and there's a lot of? I mean we could do a two-hour podcast just on that question. That there and there's a lot of, I mean we could do a two hour podcast just on that question. Do I think that there could be a show like that again? Absolutely yes. 

13:35
I think finding the right hosts would be key. Whether Chaz would want to be involved, you know, I'm certainly think her presence could do, you know, could only help, because you know of her own film knowledge, you know, and producing knowledge and experience, and obviously you know all of the things she's done. But to me it's like, really, what it comes down to is, you know, gene and Roger together really were the lightning in the bottle, you know. And so it's not. You know, that doesn't happen too often, so it becomes a question of who could it be? Who could do it? 

14:08
And a lot of people have tried and it's never quite lived up to the legacy of what they built. So do I think it could happen again? Absolutely Do I think it will happen again? Maybe, maybe not Again. We could talk for hours about why or why not. It might be. It's sort of interesting to think about, but I do think that, either way, the model of Siskel and Ebert is certainly with us in the form of, you know, cable news shows, sports talk shows they all kind of have that same energy. Sports talk shows, they all kind of have that same energy. And even you know podcasts like this, people talking. You know, if you want to hear people talking about the movies, you can find that it's just not going to be on you know your basic cable, or syndicated, or on PBS but you can find it on podcasts, on YouTube, maybe on other places as well. 

15:02 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, speaking of people today and the movies, you know we're in this. You know Rotten, you and the book. Compare Rotten Tomatoes, their certified fresh movies, distinction to the new Two Thumbs Up. That sounds like high price for them. 

15:17 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Yeah well, it depends on who you're talking to. I mean, you know some people back in their day. They, you know, despised the, uh, the thumbs and this is definitely something that's talked about in the book too. Is they sort of how the thumbs, two thumbs up, and all of that was created and whether it was good or bad and the legacy of those sorts of of and it's kind of a big topic. And yeah, I think that absolutely. You know, we know nobody I don't think there's anybody out there today that has sort of replaced the stature, the authority, the name recognition of a Siskel and Ebert. 

15:57
But I think all you need to do is look at, you know, if you still have a newspaper in your town, you know, look at the newspaper in your town and look at the Friday art section and see what movies ads are there and what do you see? Probably you're going to see something if they have good reviews. You're going to see something about a Rotten Tomatoes percentage or Certified Fresh, which means that it's gotten a very high percentage, and that has sort of, if anything has come close to replacing two thumbs up in, at least in sort of the nomenclature of cinephilia and movie marketing, I suppose it would be certified. Certified fresh doesn't have quite the same ring as two thumbs up, but you know, I think a lot of people, even you know sort of more general movie lovers who aren't crazy about movies, they come to know what Rotten Tomatoes is and know what something that's fresh on Rotten Tomatoes means. So yeah, I mean, is that the successor or the replacement to that? Yeah, I think in a lot of ways it is. Is it a good or a bad thing? Just like with the thumbs? 

17:07
I think it's a very complicated subject. I mean, I think if you're looking at Rotten Tomatoes only to get a number and letting a number decide whether you go see a movie or not, I mean, personally that's not how I would choose to make my movie going decisions. But you know, rotten Tomatoes as a website is still a useful website, you know, because you know it was. It was created to be a place where you could quickly find links to movie reviews and and it still can do that for you If you spend more than 10 seconds glancing at a number, you can find hundreds of reviews there and so all you have to do is actually click on the links and go read the reviews and you know, maybe that's a better way to decide whether you might want to see a movie or not, or just a better way to engage with film criticism, clicking the links and actually reading some of the reviews that some you know, the very talented critics who are still around and still working are kind of engaging with with movies that way. 

18:09
Now, do I think most people use Rotten Tomatoes that way? Maybe not. Would I like it if they did? Yeah, absolutely, and I would encourage people, you know, instead of just looking at that number, you know to, to go and seek out the actual reviews. And back in their day, gene and Roger would say the same thing. You know they would. They defended the thumbs. But they would also say you know, if you, you see those thumbs, we're hoping that when you see two thumbs up in a movie ad, you know, to us it's not just advertising the movie, it's advertising our show, and we hope you will come and watch the show and you will see that the thumbs are a small part of the show. And that's the last two minutes, and the rest of the half hour is us debating the movies and critiquing them and arguing and praising and talking, and so, you know, as with a lot of these things, it's a complicated subject and there's pluses and there are minuses, there's thumbs up and thumbs down. 

19:07 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
I suppose you could say to all of these things Well, speaking of their show, I was surprised to learn that there's no official archive of Siskel and Ebert's reviews. So were you watching hours and hours of, you know, old TV reviews? Like, how did you go about finding the archival footage? And you know what was it that your search, you know? Did you go to Chicago? Were you at the Museum of Broadcasting in New York? Like, how did that? 

19:36 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
All of the all of the above. Actually, as a matter of fact, I did go to Chicago and I did watch some stuff in Chicago, and I also went to the Paley Center here in New York City to watch some things. There was a few things there that I couldn't find elsewhere, and then it was a lot of, you know, looking at stuff online. There's a vast, vast kind of library fan archived library online. You can find a lot of stuff on YouTube. There's a. There's also a website that's just ciscolebertorg. I don't know to this day who has created and maintained this site, but God bless them, because they have a very extensive collection of reviews and other kind of arcane appearances on other shows. Now, there is overlap there, like a lot of their stuff is also on YouTube, but there's, you know, there's certain things that were on YouTube that weren't on that site. There were certain things on that site that weren't on YouTube. So it was really just a matter of doing my best to find everything I possibly could and watching as much of it as I could, and it wasn't. You know, at least as I was writing, it seemed at times that people were uploading things. As I was working, there would be things that I would look for and I couldn't find. And then I would come back a few months later and, lo and behold, there they were. But, you know, the vast majority of stuff was available. 

20:56
There was certain episodes that either were incomplete, because maybe the person who taped it only taped the first half, or taped over the other half, who knows? I mean, these are, can you imagine? I mean, but that's literally the technology we're talking about here. It's that these people, these are not master tapes. In some cases there are, but a lot of cases it's not. It's somebody was a hardcore Siskel and Ebert fan, like me, and they would, uh, you know, meticulously, uh, copy the shows off of PBS or off of WGN or whatever it was that they were watching, and, um, and thankfully, they held on to them and and then years later they were uploading them to to YouTube. So if people do want to watch, you know, if, if there's a review you want us to find, if you go onto YouTube and type in the name of the movie in Siskel and Ebert, if it's between 1975 and 1999, there's a pretty good chance it will be up there. 

21:54 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
So what do you think about the movie version of your book? When do you think that will be happening, and who would play Gene and who would play Roger? 

22:07 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, I don't know, would it make a good movie, would it make a good TV show? I don't know, I don't know. I'm not a maker of those things generally. I guess I'm a bookmaker, I suppose, but I don't know. Casting them is a? Is a tall order to me. That that I mean, I would certainly love to see it, but, um, who could play them? I don't know. I I remember a few years ago there was a, some sort of project that I remember was. I don't know if it was officially announced, it was rumored. There was some sort of uh project that I always thought sounded amazing. That was, um, it was. It was like roger ebert's adventures in hollywood with russ meyer, because roger ebert wrote beyond the valley of the dolls and I could be right and I could be mistaken, but I a bad review in the chicago tribune. 

23:00 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
that, from what I understand, yes. 

23:03 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Yes, he did. Yes, he did yes, he wrote a, not just a bad review, he wrote a, uh, a zero star review. Uh, about as mean as it gets. Yes, I found that you can. You can find that, uh, on the Chicago Tribune. I don't know if I found that on their website or if I had to dig a little, but yes, that I did. Yes, that that was his, his review. This is before they were working together. They were already sort of rivals in Chicago, but this was before they started working together. 

23:32
But just imagine you write a movie and then a few years later and this guy who you know you don't like you might not talk to him, but you know you don't like you might not talk to him, but you know this person. He writes the scathing review of your, of your movie blames you maybe not by name, but sort of says I can't imagine why russ meyer would have saddled himself with this neophyte screenwriter meaning roger ebert. Um, just imagine if that guy who wrote that then a few years later they say we want you, would you want to do a tv show with this guy? Just Just think about how you would feel and then you get a little sense of why these guys maybe didn't always, uh, uh, get along, but uh, yes, yes, that that uh did happen and but yeah, there was some sort of. 

24:16
There was a project like that. I remember them talking about it. I don't remember who was supposed to direct it, but I always thought that would have been. I was so excited when I heard about that project and I don't even really know why it fell apart, but I thought that would have made a stupendous movie. I would have loved to have seen that. Maybe, maybe, someday they'll make it. I don't know. 

24:34 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, you also narrate the audio book. Can you tell us a little bit more? What was that process like, and did you consider incorporating soundbites from Cisco and Ebert or any other quotes from interviewees into your audio book that you spoke? 

24:51 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
to. I'm not sure if that. You know I this was the first time I've done an audio book. I'm not sure if that's I guess I mean I've listened to audio books. I'm not sure if I'm not sure if that's, I guess I mean I've listened to audio books. I'm not sure, I'm not sure if that's an if that was, if that option was allowed, it wasn't presented to me. That would have been cool, I guess. But maybe there's a legal issue of, you know, using clips from the episodes without permission. Maybe that would have been not allowed. But yes, I did narrate it I, I wanted to do it, I thought it would be fun. I mean, I had listened to audio books and I also, I don't know, when I listen to audio books I often find I like them much more when the author reads them, reads it themselves. 

25:35
Sometimes the you know, no disrespect to professional, you know audio book readers, but sometimes they just seem a little I don't know, phony insincere. You know you could really tell when a when an author is reading it, because maybe they're not as polished and they don't have that great voice that so many of those audio book people have. But they, they, but, but. But it was written in their voice and they know what they intended to say and they can speak with a certain level of authority and passion. And so I've found that sometimes maybe not always, but a lot of times when the author reads it themselves, I don't know, I just enjoy it more myself. And so that was why I sort of, when the publisher came to me about it, I was like I want, yeah, if you'll let me do it, I want to do it, I want to. You know, I think it would be really interesting and it was a very interesting experience. It was fun, it was hard, it was long, it was, you know, to record. 

26:34
I think the final book is like nine hours and maybe 20 minutes or something. And it was multiple weekends, all day sessions in the studio just reading, reading the book. Um, so yeah, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of an endurance test. It's a little grueling, you know, on the, on your throat, because after you know, two days of eight straight hours reading, you know you start to, you know you, it's a, it's a real workout for the, for the, for the voice, the voice box. But, um, yeah, I was very happy, I did it and, um, I haven't listened to too. 

27:06
I have listened to a little of it. I I don't know something about listening to my own voice. Uh, I don't know. I don't know that I could do that for nine and a half hours, but it, you know, I'm glad I did it. And if, listening to this podcast, you think, wow, listen to that incredible voice, I could. I would love to hear, love to hear eight and a half more hours that sound just like this. Well, you can, because the audio book is out there and I did it. 

27:33 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
And there were some very touching moments in the book. Did you find that you were getting emotional when you read through those parts because they have been such a big influence on your life, in your career? 

27:44 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Yeah, uh, honestly, yes, actually, you know, and people have asked you know, was it hard writing? Because certainly the the it's the opposable thumbs and the story of cisco neighbor. Generally it's a fun story and and it's got a lot of, you know, humor and you know like roger ebert writes beyond the valley of the dolls and gene cisco writes the most merciless zero star review of it imaginable. And this is before they've ever yeah. 

28:12
And it's before, and it's before they've ever worked together for a single episode. Like, you couldn't make up stuff like that. It's just so beautiful and funny and poetic and and and most of the story is like that. And then at the end it's not like that. It's really sad because you know, gene's life was so short, like just kind of horribly short, and he died of this horrible illness and before long after that Roger got ill and you know it wasn't easy writing it, but I don't know. 

28:46
But honestly, the reading of the audio book, yes, it was kind of emotional and heavy. Those chapters were very difficult to get through. I really loved reading the stuff about Beyond the Valley of the Dolls and that was fun. And then, yeah, it was, it was. It was tough because you know you want to read it with the appropriate level of seriousness, but you also you know you can't be, you know breaking up and breaking down on the microphone as well. So it was tough. I had to. There was definitely some moments where I was like can we take a five minute break here? And I had to sort of pause because yeah, it's heavy stuff. So, yeah, that was not. That part of the book was definitely my least favorite to read, let's say, and certainly the most difficult to read as well. That was not a fun part of the overall process, which otherwise was a lot of fun. 

29:45 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Let's talk about a little bit of current state. You're the current chair of the New York Film Critics Circle. What's the hot topic that everybody's debating? 

30:14 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
world of streaming and, uh, in a world where it's kind of gone back a little bit to the way things were before the pandemic, but, um, in a world where the the sort of the dividing line between the movie theater and home, which for so long was, you know, that was like a brick wall, it was impermeable. You know, as the pandemic happened and it was even before the pandemic it was sort of starting to get a little more, you know, a little more opaque. You know, with Netflix making their own movies and all these streamers, you know, the pandemic really seemed to accelerate that and you know, for a while, to accelerate that. And you know, for a while, people are talking this is the end of movie theaters and things like that, and I think what we're seeing, you know, in the last year or 18 months, is that that doesn't really seem to be the case. There are, you know, people are still going to the movie theaters when the movies are good, when there's things that they want to see. But I think it's that's still. 

31:13
What people are talking about is is are these services good for movies? Are they bad for movies? Are they going to end up destroying movie theaters? Are movie theaters going to survive? Are the movies that are being made for these streaming services any good? Why are so many of them so crummy? 

31:31
And also kind of an extension of that? There's so much stuff to watch now in theaters, on streaming, on cable, on broadcast, on the internet, on YouTube. There's just there's so much stuff that it becomes a question of like, what do I watch and how do I find time to watch all the things that I want to watch? And, you know, that's kind of one place where critics can absolutely still come in and play an important role. We don't, we? Maybe there's not as many of them making a full time living doing that as there used to be in the days of of Siskel and Ebert, which is kind of unfortunate, said the guy who tries to make a living doing this. But I mean, if you, you know, if you want to find people talking about these things though there's, there's certainly, you know, no end to the number of critics you could read, watch, listen to on podcasts if you're willing to go out there and find them. 

32:36 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, when it comes to movies that you're watching or screen-based media, you're watching many things, but do you have a favorite genre that you in particular like, that you in? 

32:50 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
particular like A favorite genre. I don't know I'm, you know I'm omni-genre-rational, I don't know, is that a word I could make up on the spot? I'm not really. You know I'm not really in favor of or opposed to any genre. I you know a good, I love a good romantic comedy. I love a good science fiction movie. I love a good drama. I love a good baseball movie. I love a good car chase movie. You know I love a good, uh, beautiful, ponderous art film if it's done well. You know I'm, and I and honestly I do think a little of that I kind of attribute to to Siskel and Ebert and watching this show from an early age where you would be introduced to a lot of different kinds of movies. 

33:43
It wasn't like they only reviewed the big movie of the week. They would talk about documentaries and art house films and foreign films and if you hadn't seen a classic movie that they were talking about, they didn't make you feel like a dummy because you didn't know the rules of the game, or eight and a half, or breathless or whatever the movie might be, if they were talking about it being new on home video. The home video pick of the week was a regular feature on the show for years. They always kind of made me go oh, that sounds interesting. They had this way of of making you want to discover and watch whatever they were talking about. So I don't know, that's always sort of the way that I've kind of felt. 

34:27
I mean, I guess if I was, you know, pressed, I might say I love a good action movie, but I wouldn't say that there is, you know, a genre I'm trying to think of, like one genre that I go, oh, I don't like that kind of movie, but I'm hard pressed to think of one. I would love actually to be able to say like oh, I, you know what I hate is X, but I'm not, nothing's coming to mind. I mean, if you tell me, oh, you should see this movie, it's good, I kind of doesn't matter what it's about to me, you know, if it's good, it's good. You know, that's what's amazing about movies. They can be anything, they can look like anything, they can be 70 minutes long, or they can be four and a half hours. You know, they can be fictional or non-fictional, they can be 100 years old or they could have been made last week. I just, you know, I love movies, they're the best. 

35:18 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
They're great. I get that impression in talking to you. Definitely you love the movies. Well, speaking, not picking your favorite genre, that's fine. Okay, we'll ask you to pick something else. So when you were doing. 

35:32 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
What a cop out sorry doing your research. 

35:34 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Did you visit, uh uh in chicago? Did you uh visit, uh garrett's on rudolph street? Uh, it was around the corner from the chicago theater, which was gene siskel's favorite popcorn shop. And then of popcorn. Is it popcorn or no popcorn for you? 

35:54 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Okay. So when I was in Chicago I walked past a lot of those popcorn places because they're kind of a chain, I didn't go in. But recently my wife and daughter took a trip to Chicago without me. It was my daughter's birthday and instead of a birthday party she really wanted to go see Sue the dinosaur at the Field Museum. They have this like the world's most complete T-Rex, and so she didn't have a birthday party this year. She went to see Sue and they went and got popcorn at. I don't know if it was that exact one, but they got. They got the popcorn and they did say it was great. 

36:36
I love popcorn. I'm I'm not supposed to eat it because it can upset. I'm a. I'm like a old lady, Like my grandmother had the same digestive issues that I have now as now. I've had them since I was 22. It's pretty embarrassing, but I'll be honest, I don't care and I'm supposed to avoid to preserve my very touchy digestive system. I'm supposed to avoid nuts and seeds and sadly that includes popcorn. It's corn, I wouldn't know why, but I guess it's the husks or whatever the. I don't know. I'm not supposed to eat it. Do I sometimes eat it even though I'm not supposed to. Yes, If it was up to me, I would definitely have popcorn every time I went to the movies, but I do try to be good for my own health and avoid it when I can. But yeah, I used to love popcorn and still do. To be honest with you, uh, and it's always better at the movie theater, usually, maybe not always, but usually absolutely so. 

37:40 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Speaking of your daughter and and the fact that you have, uh, young children school's gonna be out soon. You know, what do you recommend for the summer viewing? Is it from TV or streaming, or film, you know, for the children and their families to consume? And I, brandon, had made a note here for me saying, apparently, cup and a Half. Roger Ebert notoriously endorsed it, much to Gene's chagrin. 

38:07 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
He did. Yes, yes, I don't think I would encourage my children to see it, but, yes, that is true. Yes, when they reviewed that movie, roger gave it a thumbs up. Now, it wasn't a, you know, a rave review by any stretch of the imagination, but he gave it a positive thumbs up review, stretch of the imagination, but he gave it a positive thumbs up review. And Gene was flabbergasted and the sort of the story that I was told that kind of connects with that is they reviewed the movie, roger gave it a positive review, Gene was mortified and if you watch it online you'll see he's almost kind of angry. He's not just like horrified, he's kind of, he's a little annoyed that Roger has done this. This just seems like a violation of his, his, his sense of taste, if not morality. 

38:57
And so the story I was told by someone who worked on the show was this the offices at the studio for the show had a wall of fame and like a, like a tack board, you know, and when someone would write into the show. If someone wrote a nice letter, a movie star, a director sometimes would write something to the show saying thank you so much for supporting my movie. It really means a lot Signed so-and-so, and then they would stick it up on the board and when you walked by you could look and see who's written to the show. Well, as the story was told to me one day, not long after the Cop and a Half review, roger Ebert was walking by the Wall of Fame in the office and said, oh, look at this. And he pulls off the Wall of Fame. There was a signed picture of the young man in Cop and a Half. 

39:47
Cop and a Half is a movie with Burt Reynolds and a child actor. The child and Burt Reynolds is like a gruff cop and the child. I have seen this movie but I don't remember the exact details. But somehow the cop becomes his partner, wackiness ensues, and so I think Roger had praised the young child actor in the film and so the child actor had written in I think his name is Norman Golden, had written in, you know, like, sent in like his headshot, signed to Roger. You know, thank you for saying such nice things about my movie, norman Golden, or something like that. 

40:28
And Roger sees it on the board and goes do you see this now? Look at this. This is nice. What a nice young man to do. This is lovely and he's talking loudly and he's very happy. And from down the hall Gene hears this happening and he comes out of whatever room he's in and he rushes over and he says oh, did Norman send you a nice? Yes, look at this, gene. Look at what he sent me. And Gene says does the signature look familiar to you at all, roger? And Roger's looking at it and Gene says I wrote the letter, I signed the headshot, so he had sent it to the office or had tacked it up on the wall himself, hoping and waiting that eventually roger would see it, and and he got exactly what he wanted. Uh, he got to uh, needle roger one more time. 

41:19
But yes, I don't think I would have my children watch, watch that one, um, but uh, yeah, I don't know. There hasn't been a lot of great movies for kids lately in movie theaters. That's as someone who does still like taking his kids to the theater. That's. A struggle that I have lately is that, you know, once every three months there might be something to see and it can get a little frustrating. We watch a lot of stuff at home. Yeah, I mean my kids, my younger daughter. Actually I have two daughters. My younger daughter is very interested in music and performing in theater. 

41:52
So recently we were watching Gene Kelly movies. She was really into that. We were watching Summer Stock with Gene Kelly and Judy Garland. She loves Wizard of Oz. Her middle name is Dorothy, so she has, like you know, an intense like sort of like reaction to Wizard of Oz as a result of that like sort of like a reaction to Wizard of Oz as as a result of that. But she was interested to see other Judy Garland things. 

42:12
This has Gene Kelly who's a fabulous dancer. She was really impressed with Gene Kelly's dancing. You know, like she's like Whoa, like that. You know the movie itself. You know it's an, it's an old movie, it's kind of hokey in some ways, but the Gene Kelly dance numbers they hold up pretty fabulously and we've also seen Singing in the Rain. So yeah, if you have kids who like music, theater, performing those old movies, those old MGM musicals, you might be surprised they hold up pretty well. And this is like a six-year-old who was into that and we've been talking and she's like I want to see it. I told her about Gene Kelly. I told her about Fred Astaire. She's like I want to see a Fred Astaire movie. So we haven't done that, but that'll be our next, our next one. I got to figure out which would be the best one to show her, but at somebert, because we did talk about there was no official archive. 

43:12 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Have you heard anything you know as far as regarding the preservation of these old episodes of their shows? 

43:22 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
I know that at some point Chaz Ebert has talked about wanting there to be some sort of official Siskel and Ebert archive. I don't know if it's something she's actively working on right now, I don't know if it's planned. I just know that she has said publicly, I believe, that it's something that she would like there to be and I certainly hope that there will be one. I mean, she has sort of done that. You know, like Roger's website is kind of that for the print side of things you can. You know, not only do they still have new, you know current critics still reviewing movies every week, which is a wonderful thing to have. You know, the website has just about every you know newspaper piece that he ever wrote reviews, features, interviews, essays, blog posts it's like it's all still there. So you can find almost anything on there which is so wonderful. And unfortunately it's a lot harder, like I think we were saying earlier, like it can be harder to find some of Gene's older work. To find some of Gene's older work, you can find some, but there isn't certainly like one central really easy to use archive like that which, again, I also wish there was. 

44:37
But I would hope that if we could have something like know a really you know like official archive for Siskel and Ebert, especially, you know, for some of like the earlier episodes, because you know those can be harder to track down. They're not as many. You know the later episodes pretty much every single one, with just a couple of exceptions, is available online. Some of the earlier years. Those are harder to track down and I would be really excited, just as a fan now to and Ebert reviews to watch just for fun. Now, you know I still love the show and spending years of my life writing about it certainly did not change that one iota. So I can't say how many people would be using this official Siskel and Ebert archive if it existed, but I know one person who would be using it constantly and that would be me. 

45:51 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, the book is Opposable Thumbs. How Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever and Matt tell us how, where we can find the book, what website where we can find the book. 

46:06 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
You can find the book, you know pretty much anywhere the books are sold. You can get information at my website, which is matt-singernet. It's a Putnam book, so that's part of Penguin Random House. If you go to the Penguin Random House website for the book, you can find links there to any website or brick and mortar retailer you might want to use. If you have a specific place you would like to buy it, you can find it there. So either of those places you can find it or, as you mentioned, there's an audio book, there's an e-book. You can get it. However you want it. You can get this book. 

46:43 - Sandra Abrams (Host)
Well, matt Singer, thank you so much for coming to the Women in Film podcast. We are just thrilled to have you, and good luck and all your success. 

46:55 - Matt Singer  (Guest)
Thank you, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for talking to me. 

46:58 - VO (Host)
Thank you for listening to Media and Monuments, a service of Women in Film and Video. Please remember to review, rate and subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast. For more information about WIF, please visit our website at wifasandfrankvsandvictororg. Media and Monuments is produced by Sandra Abrams, candice Block, brandon Ferry and Tara Jabari, with audio production and mix by Steve Lack Audio. For more information about our podcast, visit mediaandmonumentscom. That's a wrap.